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Posted: 2/18/2024 12:58:26 AM EDT
Maybe it's something obvious that is going over my head but I'm not sure what to think. So....
Background/Firearm: 10.5" nitride PSA AR pistol that has over 2600 rounds through it with absolutely zero malfunctions until today. It regularly shoots 3-4 MOA with M193 and M855. It will shoot close to 1 MOA with some IMI 77gr Razorcore and 77gr Fiocchi(223MKD) if I do my part. I run it generously lubed and always clean it thoroughly every range trip(every 200-400) rounds. Incident: Went to the range today and set up at 50yds. It was in the 20's as far as temperature. Started shooting the 77gr IMI. Shot 2 mags(5 rounds each mag) and had no issues and good accuracy. Third mag, the first round fired and the casing failed to extract. The casing was stuck very tight in the chamber and we had to resort to using a paint can opener and mortering the pistol to get it out. I checked over the casing, there was no marks or damage. I checked over the BCG, it's extractor, and the chamber. Everything looked good. Loaded that same mag back into the gun with 4 remaining rounds. Fired the gun, again the same thing, the case failed to extract with a new round feeding into the spent casing in the chamber. The last three rounds also fired but got forcibly stuck. So we put the remaining 5 rounds aside from that box of IMI. We then shot two boxes of the same LOT# of IMI and also two boxes of Winchester M193 without any issues whatsoever. Out of curiosity, I took the 5 rounds that were remaining from the first IMI(problem) box and they ran without issue. I cannot for the life of me understand what would cause those IMI rounds to get stuck in the chamber to the point I had to pry them out. But then everything (85 rounds) ran fine after that. Were those rounds out of spec or something? Thanks for reading and I could really use some insight as to what happened. |
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[#1]
Kinda reminds me of the days back, when lacquered ammo would get sticky
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"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the boogaloo, whose face is marred by pixels and ink and cheetos.”,
Teddy the Toad, (w,stte), "The Derpmen" |
[#2]
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"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the boogaloo, whose face is marred by pixels and ink and cheetos.”,
Teddy the Toad, (w,stte), "The Derpmen" |
[Last Edit: jasonm4]
[#3]
Originally Posted By doc_Zox: Kinda reminds me of the days back, when lacquered ammo would get sticky View Quote View Quote Damn, I didn't think of the sealant causing this. Not sure what else it could have been. Eta. I've shot at least a few thousand rounds of Razorcore in different guns so far without any issues. It's also my go-to defensive round and I stack it heavily. |
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[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#4]
Odd... I had an issue today as well with IMI ammo. One round too. It would extract, but the last round would fail to feed in and got smashed. Afterwards it ran the IMI round just fine.
If it's just one round, I wouldn't really stress it. If anything, just make sure you clean the chamber really well to remove any possibility of a dirty chamber. I bought a whole lot of IMI rounds so I'm a bit curious to see if it has any further issues. |
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[#5]
Originally Posted By dalle0001: Odd... I had an issue today as well with IMI ammo. One round too. It would extract, but the last round would fail to feed in and got smashed. Afterwards it ran the IMI round just fine. If it's just one round, I wouldn't really stress it. If anything, just make sure you clean the chamber really well to remove any possibility of a dirty chamber. I bought a whole lot of IMI rounds so I'm a bit curious to see if it has any further issues. View Quote Well, it was 5 rounds in that one box. 5 rounds too many lol. I hope for both of us that it was just a fluke. Like I said above, I don't quite know how many thousands of rounds of Razorcore I've shot and have had zero issues, but this was the first time i got extremely mad shooting with it. |
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[#6]
Originally Posted By jasonm4: Well, it was 5 rounds in that one box. 5 rounds too many lol. I hope for both of us that it was just a fluke. Like I said above, I don't quite know how many thousands of rounds of Razorcore I've shot and have had zero issues, but this was the first time i got extremely mad shooting with it. View Quote Did you happen to buy them off midwayusa? I usually mix up ammo purchase so I bought 1k worth of .45 ammo but decided to also buy 12 packs of imi 193. 7 of the 12 boxes were smashed open and I lost 5 rounds out of that box. So I decided to go to the range to shoot the loose ammo or about 235ish rounds. On the magazine that did it, I recall while loading that I thought I seen one round being dent but I didn't really investigated that deeply. I wonder if maybe it got dinged during shipment? Either way I still have 5 boxes of that particular shipment and all the boxes have some form of damage on it from the 1k .45 ammo crushing it. I'lk try to shoot them later this week if I get a chance. |
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[#7]
Originally Posted By dalle0001: Did you happen to buy them off midwayusa? I usually mix up ammo purchase so I bought 1k worth of .45 ammo but decided to also buy 12 packs of imi 193. 7 of the 12 boxes were smashed open and I lost 5 rounds out of that box. So I decided to go to the range to shoot the loose ammo or about 235ish rounds. On the magazine that did it, I recall while loading that I thought I seen one round being dent but I didn't really investigated that deeply. I wonder if maybe it got dinged during shipment? Either way I still have 5 boxes of that particular shipment and all the boxes have some form of damage on it from the 1k .45 ammo crushing it. I'lk try to shoot them later this week if I get a chance. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By dalle0001: Originally Posted By jasonm4: Well, it was 5 rounds in that one box. 5 rounds too many lol. I hope for both of us that it was just a fluke. Like I said above, I don't quite know how many thousands of rounds of Razorcore I've shot and have had zero issues, but this was the first time i got extremely mad shooting with it. Did you happen to buy them off midwayusa? I usually mix up ammo purchase so I bought 1k worth of .45 ammo but decided to also buy 12 packs of imi 193. 7 of the 12 boxes were smashed open and I lost 5 rounds out of that box. So I decided to go to the range to shoot the loose ammo or about 235ish rounds. On the magazine that did it, I recall while loading that I thought I seen one round being dent but I didn't really investigated that deeply. I wonder if maybe it got dinged during shipment? Either way I still have 5 boxes of that particular shipment and all the boxes have some form of damage on it from the 1k .45 ammo crushing it. I'lk try to shoot them later this week if I get a chance. Yes I did! Most of the IMI I have been shooting has been from them, plus I have two 500 round cases I just bought a couple days ago. I've never really seen anything damaged from them. However, I'm going ro have to check over these boxes and rounds more closely now.. I don't know what else would've caused my particular issue other than what doc_Zox said, if I see any with excessive lacquer it's getting tossed. |
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[#8]
Get a Chamber Brush, Put some good bore solvant on it and twist it into the chamber.
https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-extractor-spring-upgrade-kit/ If it was me I would also put this kit in and leave the O ring out. |
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[#9]
Originally Posted By T-TAC: Get a Chamber Brush, Put some good bore solvant on it and twist it into the chamber. https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-extractor-spring-upgrade-kit/ If it was me I would also put this kit in and leave the O ring out. View Quote Yea, I gave the chamber a good scrubbing with a chamber brush and solvent when I got home. Despite it running great after those rounds, I definitely wanted to make sure that chamber was cleaned out completely. I'm actually running the Sprinco 5 coil extractor spring, insert, but no O ring. Those spent casings weren't going to come out via the BCG no matter what. |
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[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#10]
@jasonm4
I got out to the range today to shoot the remaining 150 rounds I had that got smashed during shipment. They all fired without issue and no jams. I figured out my issue after thinking about it. I recall it was very easy to put the bolt into the carrier and if I tilted the upper, it would slide out. I did some gas ring tests and they all failed. I put in some new gas rings and today it worked flawlessly. The ejection pattern changed significantly to 3 o'clock. I remember while at the range before the rounds felt like they were just "dropping" out from the port instead of flying out. Today it confirms it was a gas ring issue as now I can feel the casing smack the walls and bounce. It's rather concerning too because I put in new gas rings last year but I did shoot a lot more than I would normally. I paid more attention to the sharpness of the edges of the rings while putting them in making sure they were all oriented in the right direction. As for your issue, I would think gas rings especially if it stove pipes. However, extractor spring or a new extractor wouldn't be out of the question. I would study the edges of the extractor and see if they feel sharp or at least raised. A used one will be kind of dull but you can still feel it dragging across your skin. As a matter of fact, if you can just try a new bolt and that would at least confirm if you should concentrate on the bolt or the carrier itself. For the carrier, perhaps a loose gas key. |
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[#11]
Originally Posted By dalle0001: @jasonm4 I got out to the range today to shoot the remaining 150 rounds I had that got smashed during shipment. They all fired without issue and no jams. I figured out my issue after thinking about it. I recall it was very easy to put the bolt into the carrier and if I tilted the upper, it would slide out. I did some gas ring tests and they all failed. I put in some new gas rings and today it worked flawlessly. The ejection pattern changed significantly to 3 o'clock. I remember while at the range before the rounds felt like they were just "dropping" out from the port instead of flying out. Today it confirms it was a gas ring issue as now I can feel the casing smack the walls and bounce. It's rather concerning too because I put in new gas rings last year but I did shoot a lot more than I would normally. I paid more attention to the sharpness of the edges of the rings while putting them in making sure they were all oriented in the right direction. As for your issue, I would think gas rings especially if it stove pipes. However, extractor spring or a new extractor wouldn't be out of the question. I would study the edges of the extractor and see if they feel sharp or at least raised. A used one will be kind of dull but you can still feel it dragging across your skin. As a matter of fact, if you can just try a new bolt and that would at least confirm if you should concentrate on the bolt or the carrier itself. For the carrier, perhaps a loose gas key. View Quote @dalle0001 Glad to hear you got your issue resolved. You said your BCG failed the gas ring test, do you know an approximate round count on those gas rings? I've honestly only had to replace rings in the past on a different rifle when two of them got physically damaged. As far as the issue I had, I've taken that pistol out since then and have ran about 500 rounds of that same lot number IMI 77gr and I had no issues whatsoever. I did the gas ring tests on this pistol and they easily passed. As far as the extractor, the claw is in great shape and I'm running the same spring setup as all my other rifles(Sprinco 5 coil spring, insert and no O ring). I'm fairly certain no matter how strong of an extractor setup I would use that the BCG would not be able to extract those problem rounds. Those bastards were stuck in there hard. It still boggles my mind why those spent casings were that stuck(other than the lacquer/sealant being the cause). |
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[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#12]
Originally Posted By jasonm4: @dalle0001 Glad to hear you got your issue resolved. You said your BCG failed the gas ring test, do you know an approximate round count on those gas rings? I've honestly only had to replace rings in the past on a different rifle when two of them got physically damaged. As far as the issue I had, I've taken that pistol out since then and have ran about 500 rounds of that same lot number IMI 77gr and I had no issues whatsoever. I did the gas ring tests on this pistol and they easily passed. As far as the extractor, the claw is in great shape and I'm running the same spring setup as all my other rifles(Sprinco 5 coil spring, insert and no O ring). I'm fairly certain no matter how strong of an extractor setup I would use that the BCG would not be able to extract those problem rounds. Those bastards were stuck in there hard. It still boggles my mind why those spent casings were that stuck(other than the lacquer/sealant being the cause). View Quote Yes, the first time the gas ring failed was when one of the rings snapped. That was about 4k mark. I'm guessing that between then and now, I have about 2-3k rounds out of it. So I guess that's a pretty good rate but I don't know. I shoot almost exclusively Winchester M193 or IMI M193 depending. I did run some Frontier ammo a while back as well. I'm glad to hear yours is running well too without any hiccups. Perhaps it was just a random fluke. I think one or two is okay every now and then. |
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[#13]
Gas ring test is bolt up and holding up on it own weight, not bolt down, and holding the weight of the carrier isntead.
As for B/C lubing, outside of it lubed, and pull the bolt forward to lube the inside of it through the exhaust port as well. As for problem, would dare to guess using something like Hoppes to clean the rig/chamber, it leaves a residue behind that does not mix well with CLP, add in bullet sealant to the mix, and chamber can get fouled up pretty quickly. So on that note, first clean bore of barrel with something like Sweets 7.62 to get the copper out of the rifling quickly (and in which is not going to leave behind a residue), then switch over to CLP scrub the chamber with chamber brush, push that mess out of the bore to muzzle (which will leave a thin layer of CLP in the bore for short term storage, and finish cleaning the rest of the rig with CLP, wipe that mess out, and lube the rig with a light coat of CLP in the end. What you do miss cleaning, the light coat of CLP will do it thing disovling the missed fouling quickly, since CLP does have a cleaning agent in it. Simply, short of the bore that will need a good copper solvent to get the copper fouling out quickly, the rest of the rig is more like a lube change with CLP. So problem, not so much with the ammo, but the way you are cleaning and lubing, and with the rig allowed to sit, what every lube you where using, did have enough time in itself to start dissolving the chamber fouling, to allow the spent cases to be extracted again, instead of just foul bound to the chamber walls instead. Also, if you run into this problem down the road, pull the charging handle back far enough to get the rings in front of the exhaust port, quick shot or few drops of CLP into the B/C gas chamber section and cycle the B/C a few times. Hence don't want to add CLP directly to the chamber, but this migration way of allowing the CLP to make it way into the chamber from inside the B/C, does a great job of keeping the rig running. |
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Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds... <---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind. |
[Last Edit: jasonm4]
[#14]
Originally Posted By Dano523: Gas ring test is bolt up and holding up on it own weight, not bolt down, and holding the weight of the carrier isntead. As for B/C lubing, outside of it lubed, and pull the bolt forward to lube the inside of it through the exhaust port as well. As for problem, would dare to guess using something like Hoppes to clean the rig/chamber, it leaves a residue behind that does not mix well with CLP, add in bullet sealant to the mix, and chamber can get fouled up pretty quickly. So on that note, first clean bore of barrel with something like Sweets 7.62 to get the copper out of the rifling quickly (and in which is not going to leave behind a residue), then switch over to CLP scrub the chamber with chamber brush, push that mess out of the bore to muzzle (which will leave a thin layer of CLP in the bore for short term storage, and finish cleaning the rest of the rig with CLP, wipe that mess out, and lube the rig with a light coat of CLP in the end. What you do miss cleaning, the light coat of CLP will do it thing disovling the missed fouling quickly, since CLP does have a cleaning agent in it. Simply, short of the bore that will need a good copper solvent to get the copper fouling out quickly, the rest of the rig is more like a lube change with CLP. So problem, not so much with the ammo, but the way you are cleaning and lubing, and with the rig allowed to sit, what every lube you where using, did have enough time in itself to start dissolving the chamber fouling, to allow the spent cases to be extracted again, instead of just foul bound to the chamber walls instead. Also, if you run into this problem down the road, pull the charging handle back far enough to get the rings in front of the exhaust port, quick shot or few drops of CLP into the B/C gas chamber section and cycle the B/C a few times. Hence don't want to add CLP directly to the chamber, but this migration way of allowing the CLP to make it way into the chamber from inside the B/C, does a great job of keeping the rig running. View Quote Hey @Dano523, thanks for chiming it. I admittedly am someone who might over clean a bit, doing a thorough job after every range session(500-1k rounds). But not a white glove deep cleaning. I'm pretty careful what I do though. Generally, I'll either use Shooters Choice MC#7, MPro7 cleaner, and/or very periodically I'll de-copper with sweets762. I will also use a bronze bristle chamber brush and chamber mops to really get the chamber cleared out(every time). A couple years ago I started to use a couple passes with just 91% isopropyl alcohol after using solvents to neutralize the bore. I'll let the bore dry then use MPro7 LPx oil, which seems to work slightly better than traditional CLP as a general oil. I know I keep bringing it up and maybe I'm thinking too deep into it, but what still confuses me is that I only had a problem with 5 consecutive rounds about 20 rounds into my range session and then extraction problems completely went away(with the same lot ammo and other factory loads). By the way those casings were that stuck in the chamber, where I had to pry the shit out of them to get them out, I would have figured that I would've continued to have extraction issues until I did a full chamber cleaning. I've never seen or experienced this on any of my other rigs. Again, I appreciate your advice. |
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[#15]
No wait for the turn and burn after you have the copper out of the bore in about 3 mins with a few copper brush passed, and just push that blue mess out with clean patches until they no longer come out with hints of blue. From there good shot of CLP into chamber, few deep rotations with chamber brush in and out to get the fouling out of the there, then push that mess through the bore from the chamber with clean patches until they come out dry still. Few Q tips to get the last of the barrel extension void clean, and bobs your uncle. Even with patches coming out dry, enough left on the bore surfaces for short term storage.
If you spray the pulled down B/C with a good shot of clp before you go after the barrel, then by the time your down with the barrel, then rest of the rifle, including B/C is pretty much just a quick wipe down to remove the fouling as well. Hence should only take about 5 mins to do a detail clean on the rifle. As for CLP, the large Breakfree spray cans work the best, and if need to have a small bottle on it, then can just spray that out of the can. If you have a lot of rigs, and need CLP MIL-SPEC 63460 in larger/less expensive volumes, gallon of CLP for $80 is not a bad way to go if you are going through a few 12oz spray cans a year. https://fandl.com/radcolube-clp/ |
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Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds... <---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind. |
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