Alloy frames do handle blow outs better typically. Though conversely they do also wear out from standard use far quicker. Aluminum has a pretty defined fatigue life so any impact surface will eventually fail on top of the base material, even with anodizing or coatings, will experience more dramatic wear over extreme round counts in comparison.

For instance I’ve shot scorpion receivers with over 500k rounds through them with no noticeable performance difference compared to a new one. Heck was there when one of the first samples to make it to the US finally gave out and estimates put it over a million, but no one really knows. Most alloy designs are looking at less than 100k before failure and that’s generally the ones with things like replaceable steel wear/impact surfaces. The ones without may not even hit 50k. Now does that impact a general consumer? Not really, I mean you are still needing to replace nearly every other component multiple times over as they hit their service life numbers, but it’s mildly neat.

I’d count on any design moving forward to use the newer magazine style. As a company focused on new mil/le contracts based on their acquisitions, and mostly putting that attention specifically on western markets, you can pretty much guarantee designs will attempt to leverage m4/push button release mechanisms simply because that is what those contracts stipulate. Kinda the reason the 3+ changed mechanisms to begin with.

All true, but 99.9% of users will never put 5K through one, never mind 50K+.

Oh for sure, it’s a benefit that far surpasses any real need. Perhaps useful for a machinegun rental range or for inventory management for high round count training weapons.  But in a semi auto format? I’d probably add a few more decimal places for the percentage that won’t shoot even 50k

And..............

And…….

That makes sense.

I'll be interested to see what materializes.

The trigger spring is less than $15.  So, it's not even that big of a deal.

The muzzle device is not hard to remove either.  I've never heard anyone before your comment say that they had a difficult time removing it.  

As for suppressed, mine is the most quiet suppressed 9mm that I have.  Though, in fairness, it's a 100% unique suppressor that I designed from the ground up. To be perfectly honest, the bullet hitting the berm is the dominant sound with mine.  So, I sure can't say that I can agree with that blanket statement either.

Honestly, I get it.  You don't like it.  Don't want one.  That's fine too.  But your statements are silly.  

I’m sure your Scorpion is quiet to YOU.

Reality is it’s just a plain ‘ol direct blowback 9mm. They don’t shoot soft at all compared to roller delayed, and they’re absolutely not as quiet suppressed as a roller delayed gun.

I don’t think anyone is saying Scorpions are bad guns. But they absolutely do not perform as well as roller delayed guns. Period.

Just passed by CZ Booth.

No Evo 4.

Wow, that’s hard to imagine

Roller delay is just that.  A delay in when the bolt opens to when the pressures have reduced some.  But it's not the be all, end all of the suppressed world and only one piece of the whole picture.  

Neither gun has hard recoil.  it's not like 9mm bullets are like a 3 inch nitro magnum 12 gauge slugs or something.  

I've been shooting pistol calibers even during those years when it wasn't cool.  I own them in at least 8 makes and models and varying calibers.  Most semi.  Even one full auto smg in 9mm.  I've never once said "Gosh, I dread pulling the trigger on this big massive 9mm bullet because I know it's gonna kick the shit out of me" with any 9mm pcc.

Or 40S&W.  

Or 10mm.

Or 45acp.

357 magnum/38 spcl.

Whatever.  

I know some people are just more recoil sensitive than others.  Usually children and women.

Though my Dad had nine surgeries on his right shoulder and couldn't tolerate much anything larger than a 22 magnum due to his entire shoulder socket being pieced together like a jigsaw puzzle.  So, I do understand that some people don't deal well with shooting guns in general.

As for being quiet to me, this is another statement you made where you're talking out of your whazoo like if it isn't on a roller delayed gun is gonna suck.  This is certainly one of those moments when "you don't know what you don't know".

But I'd put it up side by side any 9mm can/host you'd like to put up against it and be confident enough that it's more quiet from experience to lay a $100 bill on the table for a bet.  

*For full disclosure and just so I wouldn't feel guilty about it, I'll mention when I design and build a suppressor, especially one intended to be used as an integral suppressor, there's stuff going on with mine that you won't be able to find on the commercial market.  So, again, your statement about it not being capable of being as quiet as your suppressed mp5 because the scorpion isn't roller delayed is fundamentally flawed.  Seriously, the bullet impacting the berm is the dominant sound when I'm shooting it.    

I have also shot it side by side with a Sheriff Department issued HK mp5sd and it's A LOT more quiet than it was.  

Being fair, if you get away from the kool aid long enough to think about it,  the older Mp5SD's like they had are rated around 132'ish db which these days is really sucky performance for a suppressed 9mm.  Mostly due to having to use supersonic bullets in them that contain more powder than necessary, all the extra powder porting out of the barrel and hitting oxygen inside of the chamber over the barrel adding to the noise are working against it as soon as you pull the trigger.  Using shorter barrels that don't allow full powder burn before entering the baffle stack isn't helping either.  

There's plenty of other things that come into play.  Things you can do for blowback to retard the bolt from opening with them too and them sound better.  Typically heavier springs (I like flat coil springs personally).  Another common mod are tungsten inserts placed in the bolt or whatever.  I used to try to mill bolts and use tungsten inserts which does help reduce some port pop or gassing in certain instances but there's a point of diminishing returns.  Especially in term of muzzle dip when the heavy bolt is moving forward going back into battery seemed a bit distracting at times with certain guns.

I own both a reverse stretch mp5 clone and the scorpion (among multiple others) and have shot both with the same can (before I pinned and welded it on the scorpion because that's where it lived 99% of the time).  So, I do have experience shooting both and know what I'm talking about.  

Your blanket statement of roller delay is king because blowbacks aren't good is simply ignorance in my opinion.  And that's not even taking barrel length and fast burning powders and other factors into the equation.

But like I said, you're opinion is yours.  But doesn't make you right.

You can try to write as much as you want, justify as much as you want…

Roller delayed shoots softer and is quieter suppressed. It’s a matter of fact. Not opinion.

Stay upset I guess. It’s literally measurable facts.

I discovered a long time ago it isn't worth trying to explain the difference to these clowns.

You have people that aren't sensitive to it, and people that can't shoot at all jumping up and down on the internet that THEIR amazing super cool blowback gun is super different and amazing (cough B&T).

You are fighting against people that don't know, and people that don't want to admit it.

I'm just CMMG RDB and MP5 over here waiting for a scorpion mag option.

SHOT is here and no Scorpion Evo 4

But hey 22lr Scorpion Evo 3 with 10rd magazines lol

More junk no one asked for.

Nope.  Not upset at all.  Just pointing out the elephant in the room.  You're convinced that you're right and it's not possible that anyone else could be.

As for "measurable facts", I've yet to see any and especially from you in this topic other than "because you said it, so it must be true".  But, that's OK.  

If you think that just because you have a roller delayed bolt that your suppressed gun is going to just automatically be awesome, you are living in a bubble.  If that's the extent of your argument, you're only looking at part of the picture.







I'm assuming you mean that I'm the clown.

OK.  I've been called worse.  But since you went there, I'm curious if you would care to share with everyone what you do know about me.    I mean facts.  Not making a statement like "you're an idiot".  

I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I am an idiot.  This is one of those times.  I know better now, but gonna do it anyway.

Since I don't know what I'm talking about or for some reason too stubborn to admit that I'm wrong, I welcome you to tell me what you know about how wrong I am.  And I'm not talking about "you screw the fat thing onto the threaded thing sticking out the front".  That doesn't count. If that's the extent of what you know, just stop here and don't go any further and don't waste any more of either of our time.

What do you think are important to making a great suppressor host.  

Do you believe it's possible to have a quiet suppressed gun without roller delayed bolts?  Any other important things I need to know?

So, if you want to call in the clowns, let's go ahead and set up the big top tent and do it.

Fact: Your scorpion does not shoot as soft as a Gen 3 Stribog or MP5.
Fact: Your scorpion is not as quiet suppressed as a Gen 3 Stribog or MP5.

I just love those facts.

Keep 'em comin'.

So, it does seem that nothing interesting is coming for the Scorpion... back to the contemplation of keeping it or selling it at a significant loss and getting a Stribog.

Not at all. They made American enthusiasts cry like little girls with that decision, but they increased institutional sales of their subgun. Cops the world over were demanding AR ergos.

Do it. The Stribog is absolutely a superior gun once you swap the lower to accept Scorpion mags.

I've never had a problem with 9mm recoil. Go figure.

Who in this thread said they did?
Why would you not want the one that shoots softer and suppresses better though?

Nothing wrong with that at all. I just don't know if DRL bolt carrier could be done in a polymer receiver, so if it has to be steel, then it would go against the direction of their production with that particular model. I guess it just seems a little far-fetched to anticipate happening unless there was a real demand for it from their perspective. But anything is possible. Even so, I haven't seen any news about a "4" version yet.

I’m starting to miss the point of this thread…
Why the hate?
Get a roller delayed PCC and enjoy it.

....

Looks like they're coming out with .45 & 10mm.



HK even had MP subgun in 9, 40, & 10 in the 90's, but dropped the latter 2 cal models after a while. 10mm reportedly beat itself, so will by interesting to see how the Stribog performs.

Yep, I checked them out while I was there Tuesday. Very, very slick feeling guns and typical great ergos from the 9mm Bogs.