New Daniel Defense PCC.


NICE! Hope it's affordable.

I do like that.

And I have a ton of Scorpion mags.

What what the final price will be? Hopefully nothing like that .45 that took UMP mags, can't recall the name.

Any info on the new PCC from Kahr/Auto Ordinance?

The LWRC SMG45
Unfortunately, this shit the bed already for me being straight blowback.

Holy fuck.
WHY are people STILL releasing straight blowback PCC’s in 2024?

It’s such old, easy-to-implement technology. To not release a roller delayed gun is nothing more than absolute laziness and/or incompetence.

Hydraulic buffer system ain’t it. It’s still not as soft as roller delayed like B&T’s hydraulic buffer system and I guarantee the DD system isn’t either.

Nice!

If you know you know (unironically). I can't understand how anyone mentions hydraulic buffer as a solution here, the action already opened at the wrong time for that to do anything. I'd be more excited about a semi-auto open bolt gun than another blowback PCC. The open bolt would stay back a lot longer.

At least the lower might be worth something, but I kinda doubt it.

Maybe if LWRC would have done their new delayed with a scoprion mag.

At least we're to a point where most companies could put the right gun together if they weren't so lazy. We'll get there someday!

Personally I like blowback for simplicity.

Literally the -ONLY- thing they did right with this thing is making it use Scorpion mags. Smfh. The industry is just getting fucking lazy. And people are rewarding their laziness by continuing to give them their money for mediocre products.

Honestly, it's like DD copied PSA's AR-V, and added some Gucci features such as ambidextrous controls.

Guys literally made a more expensive AR-V, with proprietary crap. Meanwhile CMMG is just ignoring the scorpion mags...

Simple like a flint lock

Darn, dd is two for two... now if they would only bring back their light weight 11.5" barrels...

They are? This and the pistol are both incredibly underwhelming from what I’m gathering by and far from most people.

Do you realize how truly, incredibly simple the MP5 and Stribogs delaying systems work? Both are ridiculously effective, and ridiculously simple.

What DD and the rest of the companies are releasing with these direct blowback guns is flat out laziness and/or incompetence.

You are not making any sense. What is "wrong time to open" in this case? You get case ruptures? No? So the action opens when it should.

Stribog's system is a placebo. Only fools people who know nothing, see a roller, and they are fans.

It's nothing like MP-5 in design, which has a true two-piece delayed blowback. with a mechanical disadvantage between the bolt face and the blowback mass.

Oh and BTW, the HK roller system is far more complex than some seem to think. Remember that it requires a debouncing mechanism even in semi-auto.

Lmfao, how do you figure it’s placebo???
Shoot a Gen 1 Stribog and shoot a Gen 3 Stribog. If you can’t feel the difference something is very wrong with you or you’re just full of shit.

1800-1850 msrp+/-
June time frame
Potential pistol version with smooth tube. Maybe with SBA3 if "legal" approves it.

Just curious how many roller delay guns you've designed, tested, and marketed?  Plus any specific patents or trademarks you've filed.

If the answer is anything less than 1, your opinion is duly noted.

Congrats on the dumbest post of the thread.

You just seem like so much of an expert and all.  I just couldn't imagine that you didn't have any experience since you seemed to know so much about it.

I will be buying their 16" model for PCC matches (steel, IDPA off shoots). Too hard to travel with a SBR

👍

The MP5 is fairly complex and over engineered for a 9mm PCC… as one would expect from the Germans..

Plenty of BB smg out there that are super controllable in FA…. The Beretta PM12 is one of them.

The Beretta PM12 fires from the open bolt so not a fair comparison.  Just about all open bolt SMG's are smoother than their closed bolt counterparts.
With almost all open bolt SMG's the round is detonated before the heavy bolt has impacted the trunion which is what makes them so smooth.  Almost all of them are smooth, the PM12 like you mentioned, Sterlings, Suomi's, Swedish K's, SW76, UZI's and even the lowly Sten are all open bolt and smooth.

I have full auto UZI's in both open and closed bolt and the closed bolt sucks compared to the open bolt.  The recoil is much softer in open bolt.

For a closed bolt SMG, there needs to be a delay or locking to match the smoothness of an open bolt SMG.

I always considered open bolt SMG the same as direct blowback too.  

Mp40.  Sten.  Sterling.  Ppsh.  Plenty of others.  Mac.  Etc.

The bolt push the rounds up into the chamber, once the brass engages the right spot in headspace stops moving forward, bolt momentum is still pushing forward and firing pin compresses against the primer, fires and the cycle starts the rearward to do it all over again.  There are no delays in them.  Bolt just rides back and forth from the blowback and the forward momentum of the spring pushing it back towards the breech.

Only difference in a semi AR (or most any other blowback pcc) is the hammer.  In an open bolt, hammers are removed from the equation.  But, the action of the bolt is the same.  blowback pushes the bolt rearward.  That's still direct blowback.

Never fired a closed bolt full auto uzi.  I admit I didn't even know that existed.

Some info on my site regarding full auto closed bolt vs open bolt: https://c3junkie.com/?page_id=474
I also have the Mini Uzi in both closed and open bolt.
The Micro's were also only closed bolt from the factory.

I’d have to be an engineer or a machinist to design a gun, but just a dude who’s shot a few to understand that a certain design feature is better. And in this case, its a very well known difference that’s been in common use for more than half a century.

Are only engineers and machinists qualified to discuss guns? How many blowback guns have you designed, built, and successfully sold? Any patents?

Edit: that came off harsh. When I say “better”, I mean that delayed blowback has distinct advantages. Not everyone will notice them, depending on configuration, use, and ammo. Regular blowback has some slight advantages, too, but they are not performance-oriented.

I think it's interesting how they're getting flak for having it be direct blowback, but the new Taran Tactical PCC and a lot of PCC shooters use direct blowback.

My understanding is that direct blowback may have more total recoil but it's direction or something is better than delayed blowback.

Can anybody comment or elaborate on that?

I have an MPX and love it but kinda want to get a direct blowback for comparison.

I like how the DD PCC seems slimmer than the MPX.  The MPX does seem bulkier than it needs to be.

Anyone know of it has mil spec trigger group and if the lower is m16 cut?

I’ve used all of the open bolt SMGs listed and they are smooth.  Closed bolt versions (like the Sterling Mk6) suck by comparison .

The Taran Tactical TR9 isnt really new. I remember seeing these at least as far back as 2022.

I have a delayed blow back (MEAN Arms) and theres nothing a direct blow back does that’s better except for cost.

I used to own the MPX PCC model and the MEAN Arms is on par with that in terms of recoil and muzzle movement but is way cleaner and so far no maintenance required after about 1200 rounds. The advantage is that it uses all AR parts besides the bolt/barrel so it can be easily configured to your preference. Something that would have cost substantially more with the MPX.

Got excited to hear they're dropping a full ambi PCC (i'm lefty), but the moment it was discovered too be straight blowback....zero interest.

I really don’t get it. It’s laziness.
You can make incredibly simple roller delay systems that work VERY well (see Stribog). That gun shoots softer than any B&T or hydraulic buffered PCC out there with a roller delay system a fking caveman could have designed.

Straight blowback doesn't have premature failures with the ejection or extraction parts so it definitely does that better than the MEAN.

The MEAN Arms manual calls out that the ejector and extractor spring wear out at 5K rounds and to cut that number if half if shooting full auto and/or suppressed.
I have been having failure to ejects with my MEAN and then I replaced it at around 1K then I put the CMMG MK10 ejector spring in there and it lasted about 300 rounds and it is now dead too.
I don't recall ever having to replace the extractor or ejector on my 9mm Colt straight blowback setups.  There is nothing to really wear out on the fixed ejector.
Also, the extractor spring on the 9mm Colt's are like you see on other SMG's being a spring steel part, not using a compression spring and I have never worn one out either for the 9mm Colt SMG running full auto and suppressed.

The MP5's have a pivoting ejector and I don't think they ever fail.  Yes there is a compression spring but it isn't inline absorbing some of the initial recoil impulse like what I believe is happening with the CMMG 'Banshee/Guard' or MEAN Bearing delay.  That is why the same ejector spring is fine in 556 because those actions are truly locked not delayed.  
I really think you need a fixed ejector or something that pivots like the MP5 for a delayed blowback setup for something you expect to run reliably over 1K rounds without having to replace springs / parts.

The MP5's extractor spring is also a wear item but it sounds like the new MAD bolt fixes that.
However, I think this discussion is more along the lines of something in the AR platform which the MP5 is not.

If you don't care about full auto, I would think the JP-5 is the one to get.  It cannot work in full auto since the pivoting ejector is in the way.  The upper / lower lengths are proprietary as well so back to buying a complete gun.....but if you want AR controls with the smoothness of an MP5, they are very nice and expensive.

Then there is also the MDP-9 which like the MP5 has an ejector that pops out when the bolt gets out of the way....reviews are pretty spotty on it though.

There is also the CMMG Dissent with is also Radial Delay Blowback but won't work in full auto but finally has a fixed ejector unlike the 'Banshee/Guard'.  It is a side charger with a proprietary upper to support the bufferless mechanism and side charger so you must buy the complete upper.

I currently run a CMMG RDB 'Banshee/Guard' with a custom fixed ejector using Endomags.  I run an MGI / Hydra modular lower and they told my buddy at Shot Show they are coming out with a Scorpion mag well which I plan on getting once released.  I have have the new Exomags on pre-order which they are making  32 and 40 rounders.

Someone already got the CMMG RDB to run with Scorpion mags using a New Frontier Armory lower which it appears they stopped making / selling so shouldn't be an issue.  They had the best results with the Manticore Scorpion mags due to the thinner steel feed lips.  However those mags max out at 32 rounds while the upcoming Exomags are going to be available in 32 and 40 rounders.  

I also have never worn out any extractor springs on the CMMG RDB.  Extraction has never been an issue for me.  In fact, I have high speed videos showing that with a suppressor mounted, it extracts on it's own with the extractor removed from the bolt.


I had an MPX and hated it as it was gassy and LOUD.  So glad I got rid of it.

Yeah but MEAN currently won't sell their BCG / BBL separately like CMMG will...If you choose MEAN they make you buy the whole upper.

Regarding magazine compatibility, It is already proven that the CMMG will work with some Scorpion mags like the Manticore, as well as Colt, Glock, Sig and the Endomags and I would assume Exomags.
The MEAN doesn't work with Colt mags as the rails in the Mean interfere with the Colt mags being too wide.  I am not 100% sure but would think it wouldn't work with Scorpion mags either as the mags are probably too wide as well.

So, this whole thread got a lot more passionate than it really needed, though I do have to agree with the sentiment that a high-end name brand like Daniel Defense, I expect more than a primitive blow-back action system.  I'm curious about their hydraulic approach, which maybe indeed offers something - though personally I'm not a fan of hydraulic systems.  Hydraulic means it involves a captive liquid.  Liquids like to leak.  That, and since it's in the buffer, it's not actually locking anything closed, it just mitigates the now already moving bolt carrier.  Which might give good effect, but the really nice thing about roller delay is it locks the chamber for the duration.  What that means is you have a stupid-strong locked chamber, that can take high pressure events and run high pressure things, and still stay closed.  

To say only fools like the Stribog's roller delay is going to need a whole lot more backing than what was given, and seems pretty uneducated on how the Stribog system even works.  To move that roller up, the force on the bolt has to overcome the angle of the roller, plus the mass of the roller weight, plus the force of the entire recoil spring which is what's pushing the weight forward.  In my experience the locked chamber of the Stribog is insanely strong, and I can drop a 1250FPS round into with a bullet that got setback all the way into the casing, and get 1420 FPS out of it now, which means substantially higher chamber pressure, and it runs that juts fine.  

An interesting test with a Stribog vs a blow-back operation, is take the (unloaded) gun, an 10" long rod (soft brass or wood if you can) and push that down the barrel into the face of the bolt.  Now push the bolt open that way.  Blow-back has nothing but the spring and pushes right open.  The roller delayed Stribog isn't going anywhere,  You can push with everything you've got, and that chamber isn't opening.  The roller delay locks that chamber closed until that roller is clear.  Meaning in a pressure event, that sucker is still locked closed for an additional length of time.  The DD approach is to have a blow-open bolt, but mitigate the ouchy recoil with some kind of hydraulic buffer?  yea - No.  How about you keep the chamber locked longer, and with that get a softened recoil that way, where pleasantness followed the function of being stronger?

As to MP5 vs Stribog.  I know many people love the MP5, and that's cool.  I'll take a Stribog over an MP5 all week long.  Far simpler application that's brilliant in its simplicity and combination of parts multi-function.  The roller-delay concept execution in the Stribog is just beautifully simple.   I'd pay MORE for the Stribog, than an MP5, even though it's actually nominally half the price of anything with an HK logo (even though made right next door in a similarly quality mechanically inclined European country).  MP5 is cool 1980's, all steel, heavy, doesn't support modern rail concepts as well, and in my experience, jam. It's German complexity engineering - and with complexity, things break.  In my experience, the HK MP5 can jam quite a lot.  So I tried a 2nd additional HK logo'd MP5.   Which jammed.  It jammed a lot.  Ball ammo.   And the final nail-in-the-coffin: bolt-lock.  In full-auto usage, that's actually not THAT big of a deal, since rip-to-click.  But I don't get to run full-auto.   In semi-auto, each shot is a directed shot.  Here's hoping directed shot #31 wasn't important, and you were'nt relying on 32 and 33 immediately thereafter.  I miss the 1980's too, but I'll take the Stribog and the last shot bolt-lock.

So to the consensus many have of why on earth is a premium-brand like DD doing a yet another-me-too primitive blowback AR based PCC?  I kind of have to agree.  I guess we'll see what their hydraulic buffer is all about, maybe that's more impressive and does more than I know.  To suggest the Roller-Delay action of the Stribog is a "placebo" is kind of a give-away of someone who has no idea what he's talking about.  Though I will say, when the switched from the 45° block to the US Marked 40° block, the recoil impulse did go up with that.  That switch was never actually needed and the issue was actually corrected with the redesign of the magazine with the longer feed lips in the curved mags.  I switched mine back to the 45° with that mag switch, and that gun is barely above .22LR in recoil.  

Anyone who actually believes the Stribog roller delay system is placebo is an absolute C L O W N.
Shoot it next to ANY direct blowback or ANY B&T sub gun. The Stribog shoots softer. Period. And by a very noticeable amount. It’s not a small difference.

The rod down the bore thing is a great test. It’s incredibly simple and shows you real world what the roller delay is doing vs plain old direct blowback

I’ve said numerous times here and other places: I too would take a Stribog over an MP5 all day. I can’t tell the difference between the two as far as softness side by side, and the Stribog is flat out a better gun in absolutely every way. It’s lighter, has modern features like LRBHO, picatinny rails top and bottom, MLOK, etc.
MP5 fanboys can hang onto its “legendary” or “iconic” status all they want. (And there’s nothing wrong with that. Hell, I don’t even disagree that it is those things.) But bottom line is it’s an VERY outdated weapon.

I’m convinced that the Colt SMG extractor design is superior to the AR15 extractor for 9mm. Colt owned the patent to the AR15 extractor well before designing their SMG, but they chose to add the expense of designing a new extractor for the project. An expense that they can’t just pass on to the customer. Nobody making a successful (non-AR) SMG today, that I can think of, uses a M16 extractor design, despite not being legally prevented from doing so. Hell, you can get bolt actions with them. If it were not inferior, EVERYBODY would be using the very conveniently un-protected but already matured design.

I have a hypothesis for why, but that’s not the important part; its that they did.

When an HK trained armorer who only touches HK's; won't give my Stribog back and tears through his car looking for more ammo - every time we get together and go shooting - that tells you all you need to know.

My biggest complaint with my Stribog is my 9mm ammo stocks are GONE.  That thing drinks ammo all day long, and then I go looking for more.  Funnest gun I've ever had - with possible exception of my SBR'd 90/22...

100% agree.

Open bolt is a different animal entirely, especially when it’s a large mass bolt.

Muzzle brakes can give blow back PCCs a noticeable improvement.  

But then again, they improve roller delay guns using the same principle, so there is no reason NOT to have blow back today IMO other than cost savings.  The 9mm Stribogs had some considerable teething problems with they first tried roller delay, but they got over it.  I would expect other manus to have early problems after the conversion also, so I'll watch for now....

This cannot be overstressed.  Frankly Grand Power deserves even more ire than they have received for releasing products insufficiently tested, and expecting the end-users to be their alpha and beta testers.  

But what happened is they burned their name with all the Youtube Influencers - few of whom went back.  The ones that did STILL got burned while Grand Power was trying to figure this out still.  The most recent Influencer ran one with straight mags, which Suprise! - jammed.   There was one Influencer chick who talked about Stribog who I think got it, but her vids were like some kind of odd 60 second come-on implying there's more to come, and there never was.   She never dove into it at all.

But meanwhile, if you stayed off of youtube (ALWAY good advise) and really paid attention, there was a brief window where Stribog A3's with curved mags, and after fixing their 1st gen roller, just quietly stopped having problems, and just ran.  If you hit that window just right, you got yourself what actually IMHO is the best PCC 9mm for dirt cheap.  well, maybe the window is reoppened with the ATF brace ban stays.    And yes - best 9mm SBR scale PCC IMHO is the Stribog(*), better than CMMG, better than Turkish MP5, better than German MP5, Better than PSA 9mm, better than the B&T, Better than Colt et al 9mm, better than KelTec.  Some of those have nicer machining, but in terms of what gun am I grabbing and taking, still the Stribog.

(*) Er... SP9A3 >4000 SN with curved magazines - that is.  Because Dear Grand Power: (awkward)

I know it looks a little goofy but the Show Low Black Jack 9mm shoots very very soft. It has what they call a "Detent Delayed" system. The recoil feels very similar to the MP5. It is $1650 and uses scorpion mags.

It is possible to make a closed bolt direct blowback gun that shoots reliably and relatively smoothly.

Despite multiple attempts by various manufacturers, Amphibian's testing has shown that a lot of the mechanically delayed PCC uppers just don't work very reliably, especially with higher round counts and in full auto. Thus, manufacturers who are making direct blowback PCCs may not be all that silly.

The frustration I have is the lazy over-fixation of following the AR15 based pattern and configuration.   The AR15 is a phenomenal DI gun, and is of a configuration and materials design that beautifully takes advantage of the in-line forces of that type of gas operation, and the stresses of the bolt/barrel-extension design genius.  

So of course, then people switch back to the 1940's M1 Carbine piston tech, and put impact gas-pistons on it and wonder why that off-center force balance causes problems in a configuration never designed of off-center forces balances.  And a metallurgical and component and pin design where trigger parts don't like being slammed by a blow-back in that platform.  There's this adherence to the AR15 design form that just doesn't cater as well to a 9mm, IMHO.  I'm kind of curious why nobody anywhere doesn't just make it run DI gas; all the parts are there, so just make and run it that way - bet that would be a very sweet gun.  Probably needs a wide-span adjustable gas block to reliably run right with a spectrum of ammo.  So.... put a wide-span adjustable gas block on it?

But as soon as I see yet another PCC in AR15 style platform - I just yawn.

Gotta agree. Enough with the direct blow backs.

Just saw a video on YouTube of a guy showing how his friends new DD pistols (the old H9) was key holing rounds. Maybe DD should just stick to making ARs.

Key holing video

LOL...but you are the 'lazyengineer' right?  So isn't that right up your alley?

I know I'm in the minority but I love the buffer tube so i can leverage the aftermarket buffers and springs.  I stumbled on the Kynshot hydraulic buffer combined with a flat wire spring makes for a very smooth shooting setup (for centerfire rifle and pistol calibers). That combined with the use of a .40SW bolt to run 9mm (60 degree vs 50 degree CMMG RDB bolt) has yielded a smoothness that I would put on par with my full auto MP5 but a nicer cyclic rate than the MP5.  

I would also say that the CMMG RDB also takes advantage of in-line forces.
Not a fan of that piston tech myself in the AR platform.  I have no concerns with pin damage with my tuned CMMG RDB in 9mm / 40SW / 45ACP.
Already been done.  RMW used to and may still sell a gas operated 9mm but like the other gas operated pistol caliber setups, you have to tap the gas very close to the chamber and it gets too dirty.  RMW would only support a specific handload for it to run in 9mm and even that chokes pretty fast (my buddy has one).  
Not an adjustable gas block...just standard and the port in the barrel is like .128" ....so maxed out.

I personally do NOT want any pistol caliber setup that has a gas port.  
Speak for yourself but I still want the smoothness of the MP5 with just an upper swap to go from 556 to 9mm and back.  I have that with my tuned CMMG RDB.  I don't have flyers with my setup like you posted either...however, I am running a custom SS barrel in my CMMG RDB for 9mm and .45ACP.  I run a factory CMMG .40SW barrel and that one is fine too.

The only issue with the CMMG RDB is the ejector spring failure issue but I have a fix for that.  I'm waiting on some parts and will share my results once completed.  

My main focus is for full auto and suppressed usage.
To be used with a RR / RDIAS / RLL.  
If I didn't care about full auto and only wanted a suppressor host that was AR like then I would think the JP-5 would be a good candidate although expensive and the new CMMG Dissent seems to have good reviews as it finally has a fixed ejector in the upper but now you have to buy the entire upper for the Dissent which is a proprietary side charger and ditches the buffer tube which I don't like as you lose tuning options.