The Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded, the Roman Patriarchate reigned because that is where Peter was.  This is historically accurate with an incredible amount of evidence, even the Eastern churches recognized the papacy and primacy of the Roman church.  There is scriptural evidence, there is extra scriptural evidence, not to mention it is still there.  The Catholic Church isn't a faction, the East separated in the 11th century and protestants separated in the 16th century, historical fact.

The "historical fact" you refer to is nothing more than anti-Christian propaganda.  States executed heretics, and quite a small number, if you want to go down that road we can get into the systematic murdering of Catholics during the reformation, enlightenment, and revolutions.

Oh, you hush your honeyed tongue.  Why would anyone think that?

It may not be obvious. But I can simultaneously dislike and disagree with the hierarchy and political structure of an organization that seeks or sought in the past to exert influence and control over other groups of believers while also not hating or having any ill will towards individuals who believe they need to be part of said group or believe said group is correct.


In nutshell I won’t bash someone for believing what the RCC says. But I will stand against what the RCC is telling people and teaching outside of the gospel.


I guess standing against some of the RCC’s doctrines could be seen as Catholic bashing if individuals Catholics have adopted the woke mentality of disagreeing with anything I believe makes you a bigot. But I feel like you can see or discern the difference I mentioned.

SBTB, you have made some good points. Every man needs to seek God for himself and follow as the Holy Spirit leads. In the end, we will stand alone before God. No human priest, pastor, Bible study leader, or worship leader will be standing beside us. We will be found to be in Christ or not. He alone is our one Hope.

That said, what happens when every man thinks differently about a topic, and all are convinced they are correct? Some will be correct and some will not, but all firmly believe in the correctness of their "truth". Is there a place to go where the theology is not subject to popular vote of a conference or an assembly, or even the whims of one man, but is instead sound and constant through the centuries?

You say "I can simultaneously dislike and disagree with the hierarchy and political structure of an organization that seeks or sought in the past to exert influence and control over other groups of believers". If this is correct, then your dislike needs to extend to every group that calls themselves "Christian", because all are guilty of what you seem to be pointing at the Catholic Church. Every last one is guilty of currently doing so or having done so in the past. I do not know what denomination or nondenomination you attend, and even if I knew, I would not single it out for attention, but every denomination is guilty.

One thing I would like to point out is that not liking a specific branch of Christianity for what they are currently doing is one thing. Not liking them for what they have done in the past is another. Here's why (please note that I will be using the word "Protestants" to identify any Christian group that is not Catholic or Orthodox):

Catholics executed heretics.
Catholics executed Protestants.
Protestants executed Catholics.
Protestants executed other Protestants because they did not believe exactly as they believed (I want to point out that I did not use the word "heretics" here, and the reason why is, with such a flexible theological foundation, it is hard to separate "orthodox" Protestants from "heretical" Protestants. I can say this after 51 years of studying the theologies of the vast majority of them. Sometimes the difference between some of the more hostile factions is the width of a hair).
All at one time or another exercised near dictatorial power over their members

That said, all have as their purpose on earth to be an influence and guiding hand to their members, because shepherds guide and influence their sheep. Hating them for performing a basic God given function is not correct. Many of them perform that function with honor and fidelity, many don't. A real shepherd does not beat his sheep into submission. I have known people who ran sheep farms, and learning how they ran things put a lot into perspective for me.

The reason why I became Catholic at 64 is because of the theological foundations of the Church, and whether you know it or not, every single one of the Protestant denominations have a foundation that is owed in large part to the Catholic Church. That foundation has withstood every attempt to change it, and that includes the various bad popes over the centuries.

I have been pretty clear in the past that while I firmly accept the theology of the Church, and I am still working on understanding some of the side practices of the Church. My deacon has been a friend now for 16 years, long before I became Catholic. We have had a lot of discussions about what I see to be the differences between Catholic theology and Catholic practices. He does not have an explanation or answer for some of my questions, but what I am questioning is not major (except for one thing that I will be taking up with a canon lawyer, but I will not be bringing that here until it is resolved).

The point of the above is, if you have a standard that you are measuring the Catholic Church against, you should also apply that standard to every single group that calls themselves "Christian". It is fair for you to apply it to the current hierarchy of the Catholic Church, as it is all other denominations. Be consistent. But what is beyond your criticism is the theology of the Catholic Church. It is why you can call yourself a Christian, even though you are not Catholic.

One of my boys is preparing to go to seminary next year this fall.  At which point will he transition from victim to liar?

We can discuss when you stop being emotional.

I'm baptized, but I honestly think you aren't required to be. However, I'm not sure why you wouldn't get baptized if you were Christian.

I know a lot of Christians here think differently than I do. I found him in logic, not in scripture and not in tradition. Now when I go read scripture it is clearer to me. Lucky enough, I had enough of a background from my parents that I was able to be able to start the path.

It is impossible to me that the God of such power and love would reject you from his kingdom because you made a small mistake or accidentally forgot to do something. He has knowledge and goodness beyond our understanding. Conversely, it is right and just to praise him; and baptism is an act of giving yourself to him. So again, I wouldn't understand why someone wouldn't get baptized if they believed.

I think the fact you're asking the question shows without a doubt you are looking for him, and you have my sincere promise that if you continue to find him honestly you will.

Put differently and more succinctly, could you ignore Christ's teachings your entire life, find God right before you die, commit yourself to Jesus and be saved?

Sure. But why would you want to do that?

Where does the scripture say to commit one’s self to Jesus to be saved?

‭Ezekiel 36:25-28
[25] I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. [26]  A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [27]  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. [28] You shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.


‭Acts 22:11-16
[11] And when I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus. [12] “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, [13] came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And in that very hour I received my sight and saw him. [14] And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; [15] for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. [16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

‭1 Peter 3:18-22
[18] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; [19] in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, [20]  who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. [21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

‭Titus 3:4-7
[4] but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, [5] he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, [6] which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, [7] so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

‭Hebrews 10:19-22
[19] Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, [20] by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, [21] and since we have a great priest over the house of God, [22] let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.